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Men of Tomorrow
Four young men advocating for boys and men by dissecting and challenging the contemporary landscape they face. Join our roundtable discussions and explore the pitfalls, stereotypes, and barriers impacting boys and men today.
Men of Tomorrow
The Harsh Realities for Boys & Men: Andrew Tate, Feminism, Male Depression
Are boys and men being failed in today's society? We break down how derogatory terms like "mansplaining" and "toxic masculinity" create an environment that stifles open discussion about male issues. The absence of male role models in critical areas like homes, schools, and psychological services paints a grim picture, underlined by disturbing statistics. We also shed light on discrimination boys face in educational settings and the lack of support men encounter in frontline services.
Who should young men look up to? Comparing controversial figures like Andrew Tate with other influential personalities such as Jordan Peterson, Jocko Willink, David Goggins, and Andy Frisella, we discuss the necessity of a balanced, eclectic approach to mentorship. While acknowledging the motivational aspects of these figures, we also critique their more problematic views.
The journey of personal growth and self-validation is a crucial theme we explore, highlighting the significance of building self-worth through consistent, productive actions rather than seeking external approval. We conclude with a compelling discussion on the power of belief in shaping personal experiences and outcomes, providing practical advice inspired by influential figures like Jordan Peterson.
Studies/Articles/Research Referenced in the show:
Gender Stereotypes Underlie Child Custody Decisions: https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/xktzy
Suicide by middle-aged men, University of Manchester: https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/reports/suicide-by-middle-aged-men/
Missing Misters: Gender Diversity among Teachers: https://aibm.org/research/missing-misters
Most dads say they spend too little time with their children; about a quarter live apart from them: pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/01/08/most-dads-say-they-spend-too-little-time-with-their-children-about-a-quarter-live-apart-from-them/
Exercise more effective than medicines to manage mental health, University of Southern Australia: https://www.unisa.edu.au/media-centre/Releases/2023/exercise-more-effective-than-medicines-to-manage-mental-health/
Women Outnumber Men in Mental Health Profession: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/more-women-mental-health-professionals/
Are mental health services inherently feminised?, British Psychological Society: https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/are-mental-health-services-inherently-feminised
Big boys don't cry: depression and men, Cambridge University: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/advances-in-psychiatric-treatment/article/big-boys-dont-cry-depression-and-men/D29C58F5EB6348BBE8807FA51167D1FA
Men’s Depression and Suicide: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11920-019-1088-y
Mental health professionals view about the impact of male gender for the treatment of men with depression - a qualitative study: https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-020-02686-x
Men wanted: How master’s degree programs in psychology can recruit more men: https://fortune.com/education/articles/men-wanted-how-masters-degree-programs-in-psychology-can-recruit-more-men/
The 74 Interview: Melissa Kearney on ‘The Two-Parent Privilege: ’https://www.the74million.org/article/the-74-interview-melissa-kearney-on-the-two-parent-privilege/
Race and Economic Opportunity in the United States: An Intergenerational Perspective: http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/race_paper.pdf
For Black Boys, Family Structure Still Matters: https://ifstudies.org/blog/for-black-boys-family-structure-still-matters
Boys are graded more harshly than girls. Why?: https://bigthink.com/thinking/boys-graded-more-harshly-in-school/
Boys Bear the Brunt of School Discipline, Brown University: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-06-22/boys-bear-the-brunt-of-school-discipline
And that's the point that I like to make with Tate. I'm not saying everything he says is awful, but it's all the bullshit that he does say is infused with all the good things. You cannot discern the two.
Speaker 2:So Dan, let me ask you, man, why are boys and men struggling today?
Speaker 1:The why's interesting, but there's a reality that a lot of people appear that they can't contend with or refuse to contend with, and that is boys and men are struggling. You know, you say that openly and you hear a wince or sneer. It's just not welcomed in polite circles and it boils down to a number of things as to why this is going on.
Speaker 3:One.
Speaker 1:I think, is individual agency. You can never take away someone's own power to improve their life and to do what they think is best for them and make the right decisions. Having said that, there's also structural factors that can influence those decisions in say the wrong way. Those structural factors could be in the home, in education, in the workforce and elsewhere, and also as well, there's a hostile culture towards men, and what I mean by a hostile culture is that it's popular and fashionable to just actively degrade men.
Speaker 1:And when I say actively degrade men, like you can just throw out these contemporary terms such as mansplaining, toxic masculinity, small energy, and associate them towards men. That creates this kind of negativity around talking about masculinity and boys and men's issues and can make it rather uncomfortable to even bring the subject up. And boys and men to be very clear on this are struggling in a number of domains, like I said, like education, the workforce, homes and elsewhere. And it's important to discuss this because when you look at, say, role models, for example, one in four fathers are not living with their children, only 20% of teachers are male and a mere 5% of psychologists under the age of 30 are male. Psychologists in general are way down from a decade ago, from 39% to 29%, and someone could reasonably ask, okay, maybe this is just how it should be. Maybe men just don't want to go and be in the teaching profession Okay, fair. Maybe men just don't want to be psychologists Okay, fair. But I think it's also fair and necessary to call out the negative consequences of this as well. And looking at, say, the biggest predictor of upwards mobility for black boys was not only a black man in the home, a black father in the home, but rather black, total black fathers in the neighborhood. So it's more than just a black father in the home, it's also fathers in the area and cultivating that two-parent household. And that came from her book, two-parent Household Privilege.
Speaker 1:Another thing is say in education is so if they're not having a father in the home, they go into school, and there's not a lot of men there as well. And we also know that there's a lack of male representation there. Sure, but with that we know as well that boys are unfairly discriminated upon in schools as well. A Brown University put out a kind of similar paper into this where it dives into that for similar acts that a boy and a girl will commit, the boy will be punished more harshly for that, partially for that. And also an Italian paper that came out not too long ago saw that surveyed 39,000 ninth and tenth graders and for similar work boys got worse grades. There's multiple studies of this and it's well documented that boys are pretty much discriminated upon in educational spaces to a degree.
Speaker 1:And then you look at psychologists and that there's a lack of male representation there and you often just hear men just need to go to therapy. Men just need to talk about it. Well, a study from the University of Manchester found that, of middle-aged males that commit suicide, 91% of them had sought help in the past from a frontline agency or service. So all of these have consequences. All these lack of representations, all these lack of culture going a certain way and shifting. They have consequences that no one appears to want to talk about, and that's because there is that hostile culture towards, I think, guys. It's fashionable to be men suck. Men are all trash. It's fashionable and it creates this atmosphere that makes it uncomfortable to talk about these issues. And going back to the role models part, real quick, I think, in the absence of physical male role models, such as a teacher, a father, a brother and elsewhere, you have now this integration of online personas that are now taking place and a lot of boys and young men are looking to.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately, I think there are people in this space that are not helpful and counterproductive to the issue, one of them being Andrew Tate. I think Andrew Tate, overall, is not helping the issue for a number of reasons. I don't say this word lightly. I don't like using it often, but I think he's problematic because he's deeply misogynistic. I think he indexes way too high on instrumental values such as money, status, and I also don't think it's what boys and men need and I would say him alone is a net negative in helping boys and men. But I also understand the appeal to him because when you juxtapose andrew tate to msnbc and other mainstream outlets and people who are saying men just need to go therapy and that say fitness is a tool of the alt-right and they associate fitness with nazism and extremism, then I do understand the appeal of someone like andrew tate and why he's popular and then when I compare both of them I would say he is a net positive with Nazism and extremism. Then I do understand the appeal of someone like Andrew Tate and why he's popular and then when I compare both of them I would say he is a net positive because there's so much against just men in general. But in an ideal world I would have neither of those figures or those kind of entities. And that's where a lot of this boils down to, I think is the role models part. There's a lack of direction.
Speaker 1:Real quick, I end with this Pielansburg case study that Pielansburg is a national park in South Africa and they had an influx of elephants where they needed to re-gelocate elephants to a neighboring national park and the vehicles they were going to move these elephants in the adult elephants, were too big for them.
Speaker 1:They decided to move, you know, the adolescent elephants and when moving the adolescent elephants they moved them into kruger national park and after just a short time they saw this wildly strange increase in killings of rhinos and encroachment on villages and just being like the aggressive.
Speaker 1:It's called like a must. They are in this must and one researcher quickly came to the conclusion that we need to reintegrate adult elephants into the atmosphere, into their environment, to keep the young males like in place and almost like teach them how to behave and what to do and what not to do and kind of take them out of this must, which is like this form of aggression and this state of aggression, and when they did that, the killings, all that chaos quickly dissipated. So I think that just speaks to the potency of male role models and how important that is, and when you have the wrong ones in place it can also be quite pernicious as well. So that's where I kind of want to open up to you guys on what your thoughts are on male role models and where you see them personally and where maybe you you've also see them lacking in your life.
Speaker 3:So I guess I would shoot back at you with. The question is because I think I have a different idea of the message that andrew tate delivers so in a normal, in a perfect world. For you, what's the ideal role model look like?
Speaker 1:I think it's someone. So if I compare Andrew Tate to someone who's a perfect role model, I would say the things that are wrong with Andrew Tate are as mentioned. He promotes too much into the wealth factor. I think he's purposely provocative. When I think a man is not purposely provocative, I also don't think a man, a proper man, is deeply misogynistic and kind of laughs at serious issues, and I don't think he's just a. I would not recommend him to boys and young men when they're looking to develop themselves into being stronger men. I'm not saying I would never say watch him Like people have the right to watch whatever they want. I just don't think he's the guy boys and young men should be turning to.
Speaker 3:So who out of the people today would you recommend?
Speaker 1:It's a great question because everyone has their flaws right, and someone that I've taken a lot of encouragement from, and I would say, help and guidance from, is someone like Jordan Pearson.
Speaker 1:And Pearson it's kind of a shame because he's such embroiled in the cultural war now, like this happened soon after he signed with the daily wire.
Speaker 1:But if you look at pearson's first book or a second book, technically, 12 rules for life like that is extremely helpful. It gives a number of guidelines as to like being a man like one is like pursuing what's purposeful, not what is exped, expedient, taking care of yourself, like you're responsible of someone else, something of that sort, and it goes on. But also people like Jocko Willinks is a great person, I would say, to look to for discipline. So I think there's just better role models than Tate to look to, and you can have an eclectic point of view on this where you take certain things from each person. I just think the issues with Tate are so infused into his personality that it's hard to discern the two, whereas with Pearson I can see the good work he has done in his previous lectures and take a lot from that, and then when he tweets out something I strongly disagree with. It's not really infused in that previous work and it's easy to segregate the two in essence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I that previous work and it's easy to segregate the two in essence. Yeah, because I guess like no role model at the end of the day is going to be perfect.
Speaker 3:Yeah right, so the same with tate is there's there's things that you can disagree with him on, but when I look at his content and I look at the best that he delivers, I truly believe that he's teaching younger kids or kids or just anybody in general to want to get in the best shape of their life. You know, want to make the most money possible and you want to want to live the best life possible. We only got one life here the average average life expectancy is what?
Speaker 3:78, something like that. So that's the message I give them now, playing devil's advocate. I can definitely see what you're saying, where, like the misogynistic stuff comes in right. But I also understand sense of humor in a sense, and there's. When you look at full clip content full content, not just clips you'll see like he's just joking around a lot of the time. Maybe some of the stuff he truly believes, like having, like you know, seven girlfriends at a time and stuff like that. Personally, I like him. I think he's a great role model to kids because I'm in his um hustlers university and I see the people that are in there from the age range of 12 years old to 65 years old and they're all hustling, making money. And I look at the little kid that's like, yeah, I just got, I just lost 10 pounds, like I got a six pack now and and you know, I just made 200 bucks this week. At 12 years old, what was I doing at 12 years old? What were you doing at 12 years old?
Speaker 4:not. What were you doing at 12 years old? Not making 200 bucks a week.
Speaker 3:Right, right, we were, that's wild bud.
Speaker 3:But the point is is like he's bringing a community together and when you're inside his community and you're not just looking on the outside, looking in you, can I, at least from me, and my point of view is I generally I see the message that he's delivering. Do I agree with everything? No, like I have a girlfriend of five years. I'm happy with that girl. I don't need five, six girlfriends, right? But I understand that we only have one life to live and he wants us to live the best life possible and not be enslaved to the matrix and, and you know, live a nine to five job. I mean, that's the message that I see from him and I watch his content almost every single day and, honestly, it's motivating. It's motivating, you know, when I wake up and I do my cold plunger stuff, I'm listening to him and his motivation. You know what do you think?
Speaker 2:I mean you, I know you had you had brought it up already but just the idea of, like you know, there's no perfect role model but taking, taking the things that you like about a specific person and implementing those things Like you know. A couple of role models for me, like Andy Frisella, David Goggins, you know, Jesse Isler I don't think these people are perfect. Right, they all have their own flaws. They all have their own flaws, but I take certain aspects of their lives and try to make them my own, and so I can make Andy and Dre like the best version of himself by the example of David Goggins with his mental toughness, or Andy Frisella with his you know, with his how he runs a business and things like that.
Speaker 2:I don't know much about Andrew Tate. I started getting tuned into him because of you guys talking about him and you know I've watched some of about Andrew Tate. I started getting tuned into him because of you guys talking about him and you know I've watched some of the long-form content and I think you know maybe he may not be the perfect for a young man or something like that to be watching. I also think he does a lot of, says a lot of things in like an exaggerated way to get an emotion out of people, Right, Because the people either love him or they hate them, and so he'll say something to get a lot of attention, and I feel like behind that is to reach more people.
Speaker 3:Well, it's marketing, yeah, it's marketing, so he's going to say something drastic to get the attention of the people in and then get into his long form content. You know it's a great strategy and he's one of the people that's done it very well and that's why he was one of the most Googled men on the face of the earth in the past couple of years.
Speaker 3:But, to your point is there's no perfect role model. Right, we can agree on that. There's actually a book I can't remember it off the top of my head right now but it talks about like building your perfect like alter ego. I think actually the alter ego effect is what it is.
Speaker 3:Right and, and it's saying take different parts of each one of your mentors or people that you want to be like, draw your own character, alter ego and try to be that best version of him. And I remember doing this when I first got into real estate. I wrote down on a piece of paper the people that I took the confidence from Grant Cardone, the business mindset from Andy Frisella. I took all these things and I built in my own character and when you manifest things like that, it actually shapes you up into the person that you want to become.
Speaker 4:Yeah, joe, what do you think? Yeah, I want to hop in. So, on Andrew Tate, right Like Carmen, like you just said, he's an expert marketer. I mean, he made himself the most Google man on the planet, so I think some of his stuff like there, obviously, is a good, it's a good idea. Get as in good shape as you can, make as much money as you can within reason. Right Like, these are all good ideas, not like the thing I think. We think, carmen, I think me and you and all of us probably look at Tate a little differently, because we're all in our mid twenties.
Speaker 4:Like we have context to what he's saying, do. I think, though, it's the best thing for like a 13 year old who's probably never Context, like they've never really dealt with any of these real-life situations. So, like, what would they take? You get a couple things. You take the you like, and I also think his long-form content is hilarious. I don't think anybody is funnier in an interview than him, but that's, you know, it's because he's an entertainer at the end of the day. So I like some of his messages. I mean, some of the other stuff is definitely blowing up a little bit Mm-hmm, what mm-hmm?
Speaker 3:So so when you, when you talk about dating that's one aspect of what he talks about.
Speaker 4:That gets the most reactions though.
Speaker 3:Okay, true, I can agree with you on that point. I would also look at what are most 10 to 14-year-olds doing? They're probably playing video games right Social media.
Speaker 3:So if you have, a guy that's a multimillionaire, billionaire, whatever his net worth is, and then you have him delivering a message. Yeah, he's talking about women in a way that maybe not should be the strongest message to an 11, 12-year-old. But the other message is like dude, stop playing fucking video games, go work out, become the best version of yourself, set yourself up, build the foundation now. So when you're 20 years old, you're shredded. You're in the best shape of your life. Then it ties into the dating Like girl. You're in the best shape of your life. Then it ties into the dating Like girl. You're a little more attractive to a woman and you know they're going to. You know it's going to be easier for you to find a woman opposed to. You know, if you've been playing video games for the past couple of years, you know eating chips, getting real fat and like now you've got to lose all this weight and, like you know, you start behind.
Speaker 4:Yeah that's obviously not very attractive, right, but okay, let's bring it back to Dan's point here. So like I have no problem, like if I had kids which I don't but if I had kids I have no problem with them watching whatever. But that's part of like having male role models in the house. Like you go watch an Andrew Tate video and be like look like this is what like kind of explain to your kid. So like I think it's important to have male role models. And also to bring it back to your point from earlier you know, if you have men in the house and men in the neighborhood, like a lot of times that's important for social calibration.
Speaker 4:Like I don't think it's talked about enough, like you kind of have to understand how to handle a situation, like as a man, right, like how you're supposed to react. So I think it's important if you're only ever around women. I mean men and women handle problems differently.
Speaker 4:Nothing wrong with that, I just think that you know I watched how my dad, I watched my granddad karate teacher growing up. I watched how they would handle problems and I kind of built myself off of that. Like that's kind of how I learned. Like if I didn't have all that structure I don't know what I would have been doing. Like that was a big. That was a big factor for growing up. So like I would have been way different if I didn't have all these men who would be like, no, this is how we do things If I didn't have them in my life.
Speaker 4:I don't know what I would be doing now.
Speaker 3:So it sounds like you took the structure and built a foundation with it to shape your life, and then you also took the values that each individual person gave you, like your karate teacher. I'm sure you learned something from him that to this day you still use. Maybe it's discipline. I know I do MMA and I remember when I first started it was discipline. That was the biggest factor. You know that I realized that I can't be out on the streets now that I'm learning a skill and getting a better skill, just beating up anybody, right. I'm now using that in a self-defense situation. I'm not going to go, try to start a fight and fight, and it made me like not be as crazy and try to fight everybody 24 7 and maybe just relax and if something happens then I defend myself. So I took that value away from him. You know my coach at the time and I'm sure you have a value that you might have took away from your coach.
Speaker 1:Maybe he's even the same thing, I don't know but the thing is, the thing is with a cry teacher you know I'm a teacher like they are, like they obviously have flaws are all people, but I would in their messaging they're not so tied to the things I find deeply problematic about Tate. For example, you're talking about his long-form content, right, but even if you look at his even short-form things he tweets out short's outrageous. But I don't think a man is trying to be this provocateur and it's so infused in his message. It's just Valentine's Day, right? Recording this on February 24th, it's Valentine's Day. Last week I saw a tweet from him like you know what's hilarious? That a guy right now is taking out a non-virgin, as he called it on a date and buying her a gift.
Speaker 1:I understand the say. I actually don't find it funny, but I understand maybe why someone would. But it's so infused into his messaging that you cannot discern the two, like in the cry teacher. I doubt the cry teacher is telling him uh joe, at a young age his most controversial opinions, whereas tate is laying everything loose and staying it as it's. All like truth and I want to go back to because it's more than just like some of the stuff, like tate indexes and I want to under emphasize this point. I want to reiterate that he indexes way too high on instrumental values such as money and fame or status, and I think it loses the point of more intrinsic values such as courage, honesty, community, family, things of that sort, and it's lost in the message. And it's this distorted view of masculinity because something someone like Tate would probably not be in favor of. Like you know, a man showing emotions and or crying I actually haven't really heard him, but there's more to that story than just like showing the emotions and I don't. I think he is distorting the view of masculinity because he does make a point that man, a man, should be fan capable, but in that same point he's making it that men also don't show emotions.
Speaker 1:I remember I was listening to a podcast of his and he's like I don. If a friend comes up to me and tells me it's a problem, I don't care, it's your problem. Like, I don't think that's helpful for children. And to put this, you know, to really give a good example of this, if a 17 year old came to me and said hey, I want to get in shape and I I'm working out, but I need high, you know, go to McDonald's. They have protein three ounces, get those, eat those. What I would say is go, you know, have like three ounces of chicken breast in lieu of that. And the reason is both may have comparable amounts of protein, but with the chicken breast you're not getting all the additional baggage that you are getting with the McNuggets, all the chemicals infused into it, and that's the point that I like to make.
Speaker 3:With tate, I'm not saying everything he says is awful, but all the bullshit that he does say is infused with all the good things. You cannot discern the two, yeah, but I feel like they go like the values go hand in hand. Right, so you have to value yourself, you have to value your health, you have to value money and be building the best life. You have to for them, provide for the people. So you talked about, like you know he doesn't talk about. What was it? Like you don't? He doesn't about family. What did you mention about family?
Speaker 1:I said, he indexes his indexes way too high on like you know, talks about way too high by like the wealth. It's all about status, like I laugh at you, broke boy, for not having bugatti. You know it's a meme. I understand his marketing strategy, it's. I know it gets a lot of views, gets a lot of clicks, but I don't think that's what makes the man so.
Speaker 3:But I would argue, then you, if you have money, you're able to provide for your family more and you're able to help them have a better life. If you have unlimited amounts of money, you can now go wherever you want with your family, take your kids wherever, let them have the best childhood. So I would argue that they go hand in hand. Maybe he's not delivering the message in a way that appeals to a lot of people, right? But the people that do understand this message do understand the value.
Speaker 3:I know from my experiences. I want to become the richest man in the world, off of what he has to say, and I want to be able to provide for my family. You know, help pay off my parents house, help do things I gotta do, become in physically, specimen, the best version myself, mentally and physically, and enjoy life like I feel like that's the message that I get across from. But it all comes with work, right, it comes with working day in and day out, and that's another thing I get from them. I see like, and it's with these bigger guys that are successful, andy Frisella, you got to get 1% better every single day.
Speaker 3:You got to work every single day. You're tired, dude. Just keep working, push through it. You work every single day. You're tired, dude just keep working, push through it, you know like, don't just take the day off like the the good, the reward comes after you push through it that day that you don't feel like doing it. These are all messages I see. I see in andy tate and I also see in andy frizella yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:And and because I agree with what you're saying too, carmen, uh, with that aspect of the mentality of having the most money, being the most healthy, being the most fit and everything like that. And, dan, I wanted to bring it back to the point. I know you shared that story about. You know the elephants in South Africa, I believe it was, and in that scenario you know you remove the role models from the smaller elephants. They go wild. You reintroduce them back. It kind of puts them back in a straight line. So I guess it's kind of a loaded question. But I know you're saying you wouldn't recommend Andrew Tate or something like that to somebody. But if that you know, that 12 year old that you had mentioned, that is, you know getting healthy and you know 200 bucks at the age of 12, which is awesome Would you think like at least having Andrew Tate as a role model would be better than having no role model at all?
Speaker 2:Like if the problem is not having role models and Andrew Tate resonates with a younger guy. Do you think that would be beneficial for them to follow in Andrew Tate's footsteps or to continue? Maybe you know and maybe it would be hard to believe, but like to continue to open your mind and look for different people.
Speaker 1:I think. I think there's two things there. I don't like to play into the false choice that you have to do one or the other and to explore a number of options. Having said that, I think it'd be a tragedy and that's the problem with this all that people are trying to agitate for their fucking life and to turn their life in the way they want it to, and that's the tragedy, because that's not how it should be. You should have a father in your life or a male role model in your life and you shouldn't feel the need to turn to someone's Andrew Tate for everything. I'm not saying he's not entertaining. I never took away his marketing strategy or anything of that sort.
Speaker 1:But when you turn to someone who, I think and as mentioned, comes with this baggage and these problems, that it's not what is what boys and young men need, and I would say, in that choice, in that scenario, you just pitched to continue to look for someone else. Like I could name a number of people in different domains. I think Pearson would be a better role model. I think someone as David Goggins would be a much better role model, who still hits home on everything you're saying. Andy Frisella, I never really listened to him too, too much, but I know he's big into business and building a business. So I also think with tate, like you can get these same messages and these same values that he's trying to quote instill, but from people who aren't bringing all along this baggage with them. And that's what I would be arguing with, that that I would look for other people. Because if you don't if the tragedy is and the reality is you don't have male role models in your life and we know that's becoming an ever more prevalent uh reality for kids then I would say, look for like elsewhere and there's a lot of like programs and say lower socioeconomic neighborhoods. That connects uh young boys with role models in the community and community leaders, and that's great.
Speaker 1:But you know it's much easier just to go on your phone and like listen to a podcast and look something up. So I understand like the access part of it. So I would not still would not recommend people to tate and that but, I start this off with when you.
Speaker 1:I understand why tate exists. I understand it's appealing. I think there's a deep problem on the left with modern, modern-day feminism where they just have this hostile approach towards men and every man's issue is just rebutted with, just talk about. Well, we know men are talking and they're still committing suicide, and we know that men are less likely to be diagnosed for depression or in committing suicide at higher rates. I'm not saying everyone that commits suicide is depressed, but it's also because of how that industry is kind of set up.
Speaker 1:We know the therapy psychology industry is more feminized and say, with finance, that's more male-dominated. We know it's going to cater to those gender preferences with any group to an extent. But back to the point that we know men are going for help and still committing suicide. Back to the point that we know men are going for help and still committing suicide, and to that point mentioned, men are less likely to be diagnosed for depression and are committing suicide. And maybe it's the wrong, you're asking the wrong questions and there was some research that was done. When you ask certain questions, then it is more likely for them to be diagnosed for depression.
Speaker 1:So it's more complicated than that and so when I was speaking to george the tim men is his no social media alias and he was saying that men and he's a boys and men's advocate and he's saying women enjoy the face-to-face time of sitting down and going and working through their issues. You know, working through what they're going through that's great. I enjoy it to extend as well. But what I always found more cathartic and positive and beneficial was what he labeled as side to side time, which is when you're out doing something on a hike, engaging in activity, and then you're kind of you open up. I know this personally and I feel this I feel more like I guess quote safe to open up when we're just doing something, hashing something out a workout, for example. They're doing hard things and yeah, and you know we're just doing something hashing something out, a workout, for example.
Speaker 1:They're doing hard things, and the thing is it's getting away from just catering to, maybe feminine preferences and looking at what a male, a man, would want in terms of opening up and moving towards issue. And how I started this all off is that there's a refusal to even acknowledge this. For sure, and it's well documented, but it's not well known, or I should say it's just well neglected.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to circle back to the one point because, you know, growing up for me I didn't have many male role models to look up to. There's guys, you know, I went to LaSalle High School. Marty Jackson was a huge role model for me. So it's not that they weren't, I just didn't have many to look for. And so at the time when I was in college, that's when I finally came across Andy Frisella and that's when I started to become open to and really just dove into the MFCO project. I know, carmen, you did the same, and if somebody, a young college kid or even a teenager, if they came across Andrew Tate and they resonated with that type of information, I wouldn't want to direct them away from it, but help them take away certain points of the message.
Speaker 2:And I don't know for me, I, I strive to be the be a male role model for the people in my life, for the younger people in my life, um, hopefully that they would come to me with those things so I could put the point them in direction. So even if, if you know there's a specific person that you know may not like, their underlying message may not be the best.
Speaker 2:I would still rather have somebody like that for them to follow, to get initiated so that they can begin to move away from. I mean, you were just sharing all those like statistics and you know the things about anxiety and depression and suicide, like there's clearly a problem and what we're doing isn't working.
Speaker 2:yeah, so you know, if nothing changes, nothing changes, so we need to do something different. And if, um, you know, that person has resonated with andrew tate, well, I would like to have a conversation with them and just see what they like about it and maybe find somebody like you know that they would resonate with a little more like all right, andrew tate's message is a little I was, you know, maybe similar to andy frisella, but like maybe he's a little more over the top with it, and that's okay.
Speaker 3:So the one thing that he talks about is depression, right, and he always likes to say depression isn't real, it's a clickbait to get into the conversation. Right. Once you get in a conversation, he then will tell you I've heard her multiple times on podcast depression is real, it's a real thing, but it's how you depression. So you were talking about maybe like the feminist ways, like sitting down, talking through it, working through the emotions, right? His message is listen, okay, why are you going to spend time on something that makes you feel negative and makes you feel sad? Just get to work, keep yourself busy, work on your health. You can't go to the gym and then feel depressed afterwards. It's just not possible.
Speaker 3:I mean, I've worked out, even on my shittiest day you feel good leaving the gym, then if you go home and you're working on a business to make yourself more money, and then it's now one, two o'clock in the morning, you're tired, you don't got time to be depressed, this is being distracted, this is not addressing the root causes, like that's I agree with you.
Speaker 1:Like you keep yourself busy, like sure you may not indulge in those emotions, but you may just be repressing them or repressing those feelings or those thoughts. I'm I'm like semi agreeing with you that you keep busy with things. You cannot ideate on other things because your mind is elsewhere. Having said that, you're still not addressing the root causes, like I.
Speaker 3:What would you do? Is it addressing or is it training your mind to be programmed in a way that you don't think about depression? I don't know what, what that?
Speaker 1:means to be honest, but I don't know how exactly to respond to that. But I mean, I think it's more like what I recommend is working through those issues, whether it's like you were abused as a kid, which we know a lot of boys are, and men are much less likely to report sexual assault, assault and things of that sort and abuse. So the point I'm making here is I think you need to address those root causes. But the current status quo is not sufficient for men, and that's the thing. And I don't think saying like oh, you don't have time to be depressed is addressing it, like all right, you can keep busy with things, but it's still not going back and addressing the root cause of what happened. Like know, if your father, if your father ran out on you as a kid, or something that sort of like, you may not have the time to address it, but at some point and you're just keeping busy, but at some point, like you know, the phrase goes that the chickens come home, the roost or something that sort. So I mean, I think you have to address it and I'm saying the status quo is not sufficient to addressing it.
Speaker 1:A, a lot of men are committing suicide not just because of things of abuse, but also they're losing their job, they're losing custody. We know family courts are heavily skewed in terms of the mother getting full custody and the father being looked at as the subservient in that or not subservient, but second in that, in terms of who the primary custodian and caregiver will be. So I think there's a lot of issues and I just don't think saying like go to the gym, you won't have time to be depressed, is sufficient. Again, like I, these are on two opposite sides of the spectrum, but neither are getting to the issue can I add a little bit to that real quick, because I wanted to.
Speaker 2:I think you know going to the gym and put like I know you mentioned, like you know going on a hike as well like being set aside side with somebody and regardless if you have somebody to go with or you don't have somebody to go with. There was this meta-analysis that was released last year in the University of.
Speaker 2:Southern Australia, and a meta-analysis is when they take a look at a bunch of studies, a boatload of studies, and then they come to a conclusion because of their studies. Over 100,000 people were overviewed in this meta-analysis and they found that uh, exercise resistance training specifically. So going to the gym or even if it's push-ups and squats at home, set up something like that. It's at least 1.5 times more effective than therapy in the leading and leading medications. Well, that?
Speaker 3:that, that's what I was going to say is so if you don't go to the gym and you talk about your feelings, we're going to do. You're going to go to a therapist. They're going to talk about your feelings. What are you going to do? You're going to go to a therapist. They're going to talk about your feelings with you. They're going to get you feeling emotional. Maybe you might work through some small things, but at the end of the day, if that doesn't work out, the next resort in modern day is medicine, medicine. We're going to probably talk about a little more in your section.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure Talks about the labels. Maybe that could be a reason I'm not saying it is because I don't know the stats and I don't want to say something that you know I don't know is true, but maybe medicine leads to suicide, right?
Speaker 3:Could that be a thought? So it's like. It's like I'd rather have a person go to the gym, get in shape, while at the gym listen to a podcast of a mentor that they like and they want to mimic their life off of. Then start working on themselves, and not just the health aspect, but the mental aspect as well, along with you know the, the financial aspect and even, like you know, the dating scene, you know, and and doing things like this.
Speaker 3:That's it's not so much keeping them busy, it's growing and it's getting better it's not just dwelling on, on the past, right, like I'm a big believer, like, like you know, like my grandmom died recently and it's like, it's like, okay, I have a couple options, right, or I only have two options. I could sit there and be depressed and be upset about it and get in my feelings, go to the grave all the time, see her do all this stuff. Or I could just stay busy, right, and and like you know, maybe when times I sit down like I think about her stuff, like that, but like we can't change that, she died, right, she died, everybody dies well, I don't think you're depressed.
Speaker 1:You'd be feeling sad. I think those are two different things. But I want to give credence to your point because I do agree and, as you point out, like working out being the best version of yourself are all things to help. I just wouldn't write it off, be like you can't be depressed or like if you're working out, you can't be depressed, like I just don't think that's not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly that's not true, you're still going to be depressed, but I think when it comes, you weren't understanding what I was saying earlier and you said it is. I'm not saying you go to the gym one time and you're not depressed, no more. I'm not saying you go to the gym 100 times, you're not depressed, no more. But it slowly, slowly, starts to get better, yeah, I think, over time. So if you consistently do the actions every single day and keep yourself busy, it's not a big burden on you like it once was.
Speaker 1:I think we're kind of being a little negligent here too, because we're not mentioning out how individualized this is, because you could be right. You could 100% be right. Someone could find the gym as their selves.
Speaker 3:Everybody's different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everyone's different so I'm not gonna like take away, like no, that's never the case, I I'm. My main point is here that you need to address those root causes in the way that is helpful to you individually and the status quo of doing that is not sufficient. But I want to give a point to like individual agency I made earlier and we haven't really discussed at all, and that's like you describe whatividually I would say, the power to improve your life. Like you don't like you have structural factors, as I went into, and then you have that culture that I find to be rather abrasive. But individual agency is like the power that you can improve your life, make better choices, stuff of that sort.
Speaker 1:And I think something that this hits home for me is when I graduated college, I pretty much rather quickly lost a lot of the proximity of my friends. Like we were all together, we lived in a fraternity, loved it, both guys and girls. Like the girls that we were friends with would always come over. It was a great time. College was fantastic for me. Very thankful for those memories. But then kind of like thrown into the workforce working overnight shifts, long hours. But then kind of like thrown into the workforce, working overnight, shifts, long hours, and I wound up in Dallas working for a few months and it was hard because I wasn't enjoying the work, I didn't have that community anymore and the only thing I really did to keep myself going was, you know, going out on the weekends, trying to escape from my life and also looking for like a sexual partner for that night. And I felt myself feeling more and more like worse and worse, because it just wasn't panning out.
Speaker 1:And then one day or one weekend, my friend, good friend of mine, great guy, came to visit me in Dallas. He stayed the weekend and on the last night he was staying over. We went out and I got to. You know, we're at a bar, we're talking. I see this girl, she's cute Go over, talk to her Talking for hours.
Speaker 1:I kind of end up leaving my friend. He goes back to my place and then I come back with her. She leaves the next morning. He's pissed. I kind of ditched him, which I did, and all that. He kind of just tore into me. He said you can't control your emotions, you're immature, and I was still great friends, uh, for the record. But it hurt, it was like felt like it was getting punched and stomped on.
Speaker 1:But I needed that and after that moment I like sat down and, however, he went into me for like, say, a few minutes and all I responded with was like you're right, a hundred percent, you're right, and I think it's like the individual agency part is that you do have the power to make better choices in your life, and one of those better choices was dramatically reducing alcohol Like I've been drinking for a couple months, but just in general, dramatically reducing alcohol, cutting out porn out of my life, a few other things as well, maybe getting up early, being consistent with the podcast I do Things of that sort and I think a lot of people indulge in these self-sabotaging habits that make their life actively worse.
Speaker 1:And to quickly turn it back to just the point that story is, and what a theme of I believe last year or two years ago was for me was leaving the boy behind. Not to be degrading to boys in any way, but leaving the boyish behaviors behind of always acting on impulse. You, you know, if you're horny, just going out and like oh, I need.
Speaker 1:You know, I want, like, find someone tonight or if I want to get drunk going and doing that thing, things that are watching porn, things of that sort and that's where, like a thing like I would recommend people to check into is like stoicism, not being a slave to your emotions. And when you're a slave, to like, if you cannot control your emotions, you're pretty much a slave to your own mind and what you're feeling in the moment. And that's something that's helped me dramatically kind of reshape how I prosecute my life and how I go about things, and it's less about the emotions I'm feeling in the moment and more about what I've decided on in previous times of how I'm going to act. Is always perfect, god no. Was it much better than it was before? A hundred fucking percent.
Speaker 2:And I would even argue that the people like if you are a slave to your emotions, you're technically a slave to the people that can cause those emotions as well.
Speaker 2:If somebody says something to you and pisses you off and you react in a certain type of way, that person has all the control over you. If you're going to react based off of what they do and you know and I mean I think you hit home with with you know, all those negative habits that is so common nowadays and so like, common, like, just like pushed into society and like you know what would be.
Speaker 2:I know you shared some of it already, but like I mean Joe, Carmen, dan, like what would your guys alternatives be to that? Like, how did you break those habits? Well, I could tell you yeah, I could tell you for a fact.
Speaker 4:I remember my first year out of college and me and Dana have talked about this before. But I remember I woke up one morning still in a suit from the night before, probably embarrassed myself, and I looked in the mirror and I was like okay, we can't do this anymore. It's time to grow up. You're 22 now. This is ridiculous. It's okay in college. It's not okay anymore when you're a professional and adult. And I realized at that moment I was acting that way because I just hated my job. So you change jobs, change your routine around, and I think back to carmen's point about depression. I think a lot of it too comes down to like what kind of structure do you have in your life? Give you the structure. Like it doesn't necessarily be going to the gym. I don't know if you like crocheting or playing. You know fucking pickleball, I don't know.
Speaker 4:But if you like, if you have things that you like to do and you've worked them in your life. Like for me, I play men's league basketball every Tuesday night. Am I good? Not really, are we good. We're okay, but you know it's fun, we have a great time, we all hang out after and like that keeps me. I'm like all right, tuesday sucks. I know I got basketball Tuesday night, no-transcript to change some stuff around. I mean, have any of you guys had a moment like that, carmen, anything like that?
Speaker 3:well, actually I want to answer that question in a second, but it sounds like for you is, over the past couple months it sounds like you took alcohol to equation, maybe replaced it with water. Right, it sounds like you decided when you were doing that in your life, that you started waking up early, you started working on your side hustle, that you want to turn to eventually into a business. I mean, you can touch on that if you want to and it.
Speaker 3:These things increased your life and you're you're now that negative connotation of your life, that your negative feeling is slowly going away. Would you agree?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean this. So that dallas story I told that was back in 2021 december, so it's been a couple years and there has been, and I do want to get back to your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there has been mass improvements like from there. But yeah, I mean it's not just like a linear track of you're going a to b and everything's fantastic, like sometimes you return closer to a, but overall over the past few years, being completely honest, like things have definitely improved. And I would say for me personally, like growing up, I've always like looked at the people for value. There's definitely like some insufficiency issues there and when I go to the bar I would always try to seek value and even college, you know just through partners seeking value that you're time.
Speaker 1:Yeah that you're, yeah, that you're validated through this sexual experience because someone finds you desirable, etc. Etc. But with the bar, and you got the bar and you'll quote score that night and just go home with someone. You feel like you're insufficient, that you're not good enough. Why am I not good enough?
Speaker 1:And I really started like reframing the equation, that like I don't need someone to validate how good I am because I have a or in this domain, or that, because instead, in lieu of that, I have a stack of evidence that I am who I say I am. I get before I am. I work the eight hours, the nine, five, but then I put in another four or so hours into the podcast, into moving forward. I work out, I'm close to my family than I was before, all these great things, so that's like I know who I am. So when I walk into somewhere, I don't need someone's validation and a lot of things is.
Speaker 1:This boils down to it too like why would someone's validation if I wouldn't even want to be like you? You know there's so many often times where you go up to someone and you want the validation, whether it's a boss or a friend or a family member. Would you even want to be like them? Probably not if they're going to be callous towards you or mean to or whatever the thing is. I don't even like focus on who you want to be and I would say that's a good direction rather than get your validation of who you are as a person through these other eyes.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean. I guess it all sums it up to being like a high value man slash individual, because women can be the same as well.
Speaker 3:It's like if you value yourself to the highest degree, into the highest level you'll be. You don't need no validation from anybody. You can walk in the room and be absolutely confident in anything you do right and that comes from you doing the consistent action every single day. So back to the point from a long like a little while ago is when you stay busy and do product. Staying busy and being productive are two different things, but when you're productive through your day, you know it goes back to the point of depression. I truly don't believe you're doing consistent thing waking up 4am, going to the gym, working on your podcast, then going to work, then coming back home working on your podcast, then going to sleep. You don't got time to be depressed.
Speaker 4:I just truly believe that I want to get back to your question, though. What was your? What was your question? So I guess for you carmen like what was a moment I could be a couple years ago, when did you realize you were fucking up and you had to change things around, like what was an eye-opener for you?
Speaker 3:that's a good question. So I noticed that in college okay, right, the people that I was surrounded by, the people, the things that I was doing. I had the house that everybody was partying at, you know, and I had a great college experience. But I realized, when I was in college for three years and I was still two and a half years behind that I need to graduate. That's when I said I need to get my fucking life in order, right? So that was the wake-up call for me and I'll touch on it a little bit more later, but that was like, just to your point, that was the main, main thing that made me realize, like, yo, it's time to like pick things up in my life, because there's people out there that are making, you know, six figures or more in college and I'm sitting here drinking all night.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, because it honestly, in this world we're in 2024 I truly believe it's so easy to make ten thousand dollars a month, like there's so many tools and resources out there that you can make ten thousand dollars online. So, like, if you and you can do this in college, right, like, I mean, it's, it's just, it's it's so we have so much access, more access than our parents did or anybody from previous generations In history, in history, so it's like we got to take advantage of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to get into something, though, that you mentioned like people in college doing this, and you mentioned like the 12 year old, which I'm not saying that's like wrong, exactly, but I think it plays into a larger point of aging gracefully, and what that means is like and we know this, this is intuitive, right if a 12 year old acted like a six year old maybe like that there's something wrong there, but when a 45 year old still acts like a 25 year old, it's not really as we don't really call that out as much same thing.
Speaker 1:Even more so when someone's say 20, or when someone's 28 or 25, acting like they're 19 or 20, and there should be different behavior patterns exhibited in those individuals. Nonetheless, I think when you're 18 and you're just going off to college, I'm all about not lashing myself for my previous behaviors when in college, when I probably wouldn't do those today because there was a time and place for it, I lived it up and I wouldn't. You know, I have a kid one day. I would never be like, hey, instead of having fun with your friends in free play, which we know is extremely beneficial to children, we're going to sit down and we'll put you through piano lessons or something of that sort. But it's true, a lot of parents do that with their kids. Instead of letting them go out and play with their friends, they'll put them through some kind of tutoring or some sort that they make them better, and I understand why you want to do that.
Speaker 1:I would love to learn, say, piano now, but that's not what you should be doing in my opinion and research backs this that's not exactly what you should be doing with your children, like free play is extremely beneficial to children and free play is basically letting your children out like, say, semi-unsupervised and doing what they want. So the reason I bring this up is I'm against lashing one's own previous self for what they did, because, honestly, it's leading to where you are today and say, if you started that business when you were 18 in college and it failed miserably and you had the party right there, maybe you would never turn back to it. It's not like going against your points. It's more so putting out there that I think aging gracefully is something that people need to keep in mind.
Speaker 3:They're life lessons.
Speaker 3:Right, You're leveling up in life that's how I look at life is life their data points. You get yeah, exactly, you get. You start at level one and you continuously grow over time through the years. So I'm not disagreeing with you anything. I would ask you a question. I'll shoot back with a question and say well, would you say those parents that are putting their kids in piano lessons isn'tilling discipline in them to you know, maybe start something and actually build a skill and get better at them, and would that be more beneficial to the kid 10, 20, 30 years down the line, or do you think they should just let them, you know, go play with their friends?
Speaker 1:I love this question because I have a pretty specific answer that Jocko actually spoke of before. But it's true that they're not instilling discipline in their children. They're forcing their children to do something. Discipline is something that I look at as is that there's no outside, external factor forcing you to do it because you don't have a choice in the matter. This is not discipline. The parent is telling the kid what to do.
Speaker 1:Discipline is, say, me or someone else getting up early when there's no immediate consequence for sleeping in. So that's it's not discipline and, honestly, it can maybe create resentment and it can lead to like, oh, now that I'm 18 and I'm in college, I don't have my parent making me do all this stuff. Now I am gonna just like, do whatever I want and they don't have it. So I think your parents allowing you to form yourself the way you are, while providing guidance in the right ways, is the best way to do it, rather than be like you're doing piano lessons. Does the kid want to do piano lessons? If so, great, yeah, go for it. But if you're making the kid do that, that's not instilling discipline. That's instilling your projection of what maybe your kid want them to be and they five years down the line may be pissed off at you for it, but it's not discipline that they're going to get from that.
Speaker 3:In my opinion, and to be honest with you, I don't know how I feel about this topic, so I'm open to hearing about it and I don't disagree with you on anything you're saying. I generally want to ask a question to see your point of view and I would want to know your guys' point of view as well on that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll hop in on that. Okay, so you asked me to make a child more disciplined, right With doing piano lessons as outside and playing. You know, freeze tag.
Speaker 3:Well, let's put it in your situation because you do jiu-jitsu, right, okay, yeah, yeah, what if your parents made you start and do jiu-jitsu at a young age, do you think you would hate them for that because they did that and then let you go outside and play with your friends? Or do you think you know you would thank them for it down the line because now you know how to defend yourself?
Speaker 4:you know in the long run if something happens, it depends how much you like it if it's something you don't like to do and they force you to do it anyway. Well then, that's you're being forced to do it. I don't think that's discipline, because there are a lot of people whose parents had super strict structure at the house. Right, you meet them in college and they go to college. Their parents aren't around anymore and they pick up all these terrible habits.
Speaker 4:They're not disciplined, they're just they were forced to do something they didn't like to do, and then they act out when they go to school and they're finally away from their parents at 18 years old. They don't have discipline. They pick up tons of bad habits. They're drinking all the time, smoking whatever, getting tons of weight, whatever the thing is. It was never discipline in the first place, it was just a forced like you had to do it. It was a forced activity.
Speaker 4:But do those traits stick with you for the rest of your life. I think that if you actually have like, if your parents are actually disciplined, like with discipline with what they eat, discipline with how they take care of themselves, whatever those things up, like you learn, you learn from watching just because they force you to do an activity.
Speaker 2:I don't think that translates to discipline, sure you may reject it too later on, they reject it yeah there's a lot of animosity between kids and parents because you know they force them to do something yeah, yeah, but yeah, and you know, because I can only speak from personal experience and maybe when I put more thought behind it I might change my mind down the line. But when I was thinking about it, like when I was growing, for example, I wanted to go outside and play with my friends, right, I just wanted to go outside. I wanted to go outside and my parents were like keep in mind, my parents were not disciplined like from my perspective, but they would say oh well, you need to get this done first before you're able to go do that. And so for me it was like all right, well, if I wanted to go, do what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:I need, and so that was helpful and like, I guess, like learning that I see. But at the same token I didn't really dive into my you know, my own self-discipline until college, until I came across Andy and really started to like experiment with it. So it's not something that like stuck with me, though.
Speaker 3:I would like to say for my childhood I kind of wish I had a little bit more discipline. Maybe if my parents maybe chose said, hey, like, like, because like I was a fat ass kid, as like growing up right like it's probably had a bowl cut too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah exactly like I'm talking about like, like, like 12 years old, right, so we're.
Speaker 3:So we're talking like or from, from the age of like 8 to 12. I was just eating whatever I wanted to, right, right, I was going nuts and I I blew up to like 210 15 pounds of like, pure fat right like like.
Speaker 3:So it's like if I had the discipline from my parents to say, hey, you can't eat that. Like what? That tasty cake? Right, you need to eat this as the alternative, you know, and maybe if you do that for six days straight to your point, you can have a reward on the seventh day. I much rather have had that than the free range, you know?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, and to quickly close out this point, I think it's more so like the balance act of the toe where, like, you're providing the guidance in the helpful ways but you're not being overbearing and forcing your kids to do resentment. Yeah, call misery resentment, things that sort. But I think a point with parents, while we kind of close this up, is like it could be parents, it could be a role model, it could be a friend. But the power of belief is huge. And for me I didn't really have that power of belief until probably around college, after college, but my parents always kind of instilled in me whether it's like going to Penn State, you can do that, even though instilled in me whether it's like going to a penn state, you can do that, even though my sat scores were a little low, like you can do this and like, encourage me to do that.
Speaker 1:And we know that that power belief has these profound effects in both ways too, right. So, for example, like roger roger banister, he's the first man to complete the four-minute mile and he did that in april of 1954. Prior to that time it was not known nor agreed upon that a man or woman say could do that. It was disputed pretty much that belief in the universe did not exist prior to that time. Following that time, over 1,500 people, including high school students, have now done that, completed that. Yeah, the four-minute mile. This is.
Speaker 2:Because they realized that it was able, it's possible.
Speaker 1:Simultaneously. The Dartmouth scar experiment points to the opposite. The Dartmouth scar experiment was when they brought in these women and they told them that you're going to a job interview, but before you go into that job interview, we're going to make it look like you have a scar on your face, this kind of pretty apparent scar on your face. And they did that. They looked in the mirror, saw the scar and on their way out they said the researchers, conductors of this, said wait one second, we actually just have to fix something real fast. And what they were fixing was they removed the scar so they didn't have a scar on anymore. And then they sent them immediately into the interview room and, following the interviews, they asked them like did you? You, the interviewer was looking at you weird or made any remarks to, and they said yes, like they were giving me odd remarks and they were looking at me odd and weird and it was off-putting and obviously like I felt some something because of the scar on my face.
Speaker 1:They didn't have the scar on their face and the point is the power of belief that goes both ways and I think closing things out is it's important to know, like, whether you get from a friend or you get from yourself, because sometimes you only have you, which is extremely unfortunate. But if you believe you can do something like it's not saying you can do anything, but you put your mind to it if you just make small improvements, it's incredibly helpful, if you visualize it. That's why I think belief is all delivers you the vision before reality can, and if you kind of keep that in mind, I think it's something that's incredibly powerful. Because we start off paying home on structural factors. In education, boys are discriminated upon In, say, family homes one parent, households without father disproportionately affects boys worse, say, in the workforce, nine million men have dropped out and maybe they don't feel welcomed or they don't feel they can discuss it Like. Whatever the case may be and we said this in psychology, uh, uh, at length too but whatever that is, that doesn't take away from like you having the power to do what you believe is best for you and taking them to your own hands, and your environment is going to vary and drastically differ, but it doesn't mean you can't improve your life and I that's, I think, a message that's important to like, hone in on and let people know that like things could be pretty rough for you, but they could also be a lot better if you start making decisions and for an actual takeaway for people who are curious on that.
Speaker 1:One thing that I took away from Pearson is, if you are just wondering what I can do with all the information you heard in the conversation, I think a Pearson exercise, a Jordan Pearson exercise, would be pretty valuable to you, which involves, before you go to bed, sit down on your bed when you're not too tired and go into some deep thought about what you're doing.
Speaker 1:That is maybe making your life actively worse it could be drinking too much, it could be not getting enough sleep, it could be a number of things and let those thoughts detonate in your head. But also allow those thoughts to transform into what would happen if I continue these patterns of behavior over time say over a year, two years, five years and then quickly realize that this is not something that maybe I should be engaging in and visualize those negative consequences Because, to touch on something that Alex Hormozy mentioned, negative consequences can be quite potent, and that is something that has always been helpful for me is if I actually keep continuing this behavior of maybe drinking too much, then I am going to be in a much worse position down the line compared if I actually get my life together in this moment and move forward with it. So I think that's the actual takeaway, and I'll leave people with that to close out on.